Ahead of the 16th anniversary of the formal dissolution of the Soviet Union and establishment of the Commonwealth of Independent States, Eduard Shevardnadze, a former Soviet foreign minister, spoke to Besik Pipia, head of the RIA Novosti Bureau in Georgia, at his residence in Krtsanisi.
- Eduard Amvrosievich, on December 21, 1991, in Almaty, the heads of 11 Soviet republics signed a declaration terminating the Soviet Union and establishing a Commonwealth of Independent States. What preceded that event? Do you think the transformation of the Soviet Union into the CIS was inevitable and if so, why?
- In the late 1980s, everything was heading towards the disintegration of the Soviet Union. The disintegration was also accelerated by the confrontation between Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Gorbachev, naturally, was for a united Soviet Union, while Yeltsin was already president of Russia. Perhaps he, too, was for preserving the Soviet Union, but he and Gorbachev bitterly hated each other. We, the people close to them, tried to somehow patch up things and end unpleasant conversations. But we failed.
The process was hastened by a plot against Gorbachev, or rather against the Soviet president. Before that there was my resignation. In the Foreign Ministry, which I headed, about 30% of personnel were KGB men. They informed me that a counter-revolution was being prepared. I talked with the one and the other, but could convince neither. And then, in protest against the counter-revolution, I resigned.
I made a public address and said it would be the shortest speech in my life. I said a dictatorship was coming and no one knew who the dictator would be, and what would happen to perestroika, democracy and so on. Gorbachev asked me to stay, but I left the hall, climbed into a car, and was driven home.
About a month and a half later, Gorbachev went to Foros on vacation. But on the way there I think he made a stopover in Minsk, had a meeting with party activists and told them the threat of a dictatorship was real and asked supporters of perestroika to show more vigilance and not to let a dictatorship pass.
Then followed a putsch, exacerbating relations between the presidents of the U.S.S.R. and Russia further. The disintegration of the state could not be stopped.
- Georgia joined the CIS two years after the Commonwealth was formed. Was it a forced move or a voluntary decision?
- I did not seek CIS membership: there was no great desire to do so. Because after I read the Charter of the Commonwealth I saw it was not the kind of organization to replace the Soviet Union. Yeltsin, however, was insisting and several times rang me up, advising me to join. I was not against it, but at that time Georgia already had a parliament and 30 to 40 percent of its deputies were opposed to entering the CIS, which they associated with the Soviet Union.
Then, about two years later, I was in Moscow and dropped in on Yeltsin to tell him that I was ready to join the CIS despite opposition in parliament. There was the tragedy of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and I thought the solution to the problem would depend on Russia.
- The problems remained frozen for many years, but recently Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia’s third president, said he could return South Ossetia to Georgia’s jurisdiction within several months.
- I do not know. His friend, a former defense minister, said the same, incidentally. Nothing came of that. Currently an election campaign is under way, with presidential candidates lavishly handing out promises right and left. He also said he would get Sukhumi back, but it would not be simple. And it can only be done through Russia. If Georgia could agree with Russia and find solutions acceptable to Georgia, to Abkhazia and to Russia, then the solution could be found.
I have talked with Putin. I am sure he is a man one can negotiate with despite involved relations existing between Russia and Georgia today. Putin is a man of his word.
Once when Putin was on vacation in Sochi, he rang me up and invited me to join him in holidaying and even discuss some business. I came and we met. Putin proposed to me that the Abkhazian sector of the railroad be restored to enable trains to run to Baku, Yerevan and even Turkey. I did not object and made a reciprocal request: to return refugees to the Galsky district. The region in Soviet times had a population of 80,000 people, mainly Georgians and was an area abundant in tea, citrus fruit, and nuts, which fed nearly half of Abkhazia.
Putin picked up the receiver and called the Russian general commanding the peacekeeping force there. He told him that settlers from the Gali district were living in Mingrelian areas there. He instructed him to collect those people and return them to the Gali district. He said he had given his word to the Georgian president and would check the fulfillment of his instruction in a few days’ time. The full number could not be mustered, but 50,000 to 60,000 refugees were able to come back to the Gali district.
- Can you see the Soviet Union being restored?
- Absolutely not. Not only Georgia, but also all the other former Soviet republics have become independent states. Take Kazakhstan, a very rich country with all the mineral resources of Mendeleyev’s periodic table and Nursultan Nazarbayev as the lifetime president. It is unlikely to give up its independence.
- Does the CIS have a future?
- Yes, it does, if it becomes truly effective and gains the ability to influence the situation in all of its member countries.
- There are many rumors about your resignation from the post of Georgia’s president. Some say that Mikheil Saakashvili is your pupil and the “rose revolution” was a way to hand power over to him. Others say that you did not have the power to suppress the demonstrations. And still others claim that it was Moscow who forced you to resign. Which of these rumors is true?
- Moscow had nothing to do with it.
- Why then did Igor Ivanov, then foreign minister of Russia, come to Georgia?
- He came as a friend. First he met with the opposition, and then we discussed the situation. But he could not do anything for me. He asked me to give him a plane to fly to Batumi and on to Moscow. This is how his mission ended.
I was addressing parliament when Saakashvili, [Zurab] Zhvania and other conspirators rushed in. I saw people armed with submachine guns, handguns, knives and truncheons.
- Not roses?
- No, and I don’t know why they called it the rose revolution. I didn’t see a single rose.
The situation was dangerous, and my bodyguards led me into the yard, where I saw the opposition and my supporters, about 2,500 people in all. I was told that I should brace up, that they would rally 100,000 people in my support the next day.
I saw it as an attempted coup, announced the state of emergency, and went home. As I was riding in the car, I thought that I could do it, because I still was the president and commander-in-chief, and so had the power to issue orders to the army. The army had guns and tanks; it was not a very large army, but it had enough weapons to win. But there would be victims on both sides, and I could not allow anyone to be killed.
I phoned the secretariat from the car to revoke the state of emergency order. When I came home, my wife said: “What are you going to do? I know what a state of emergency is: there will be blood.”
I told her that there would be no bloodshed, but I would not be president the next day because I would resign.
My son called from Paris, where he works for UNESCO, asking if there would be bloodshed. I told him: No, there wouldn’t be any.
The next day I invited the conspirators – Zhvania and Saakashvili – and asked them how we would live after what happened yesterday.
Zhvania told me my resignation would be the least painful solution, but they could not suggest it because they are my pupils.
I replied that we were wasting time, because I had decided to resign the day before, adding that I was ready to help them with advice, if they needed it.
Then there were elections, and Zhvania became prime minister. He was later killed.
- Did they kill him or was it really “gas poisoning from a faulty heater”?
- He was killed. They said he died of carbon monoxide poisoning, but when our and American experts investigated the circumstances of his death, they concluded that it was not gas poisoning. I don’t know where or how he was killed.
- Can you explain why the people demanded the resignation of Saakashvili in early November?
- There is hunger in Georgia. I know that not all Russians are rich, and there are problems in some Russian regions. But there is no hunger in Russia, thanks to Vladimir Putin. He is a smart man and his policy has helped to improve the people’s living standards. But Georgians are impoverished and hungry.
- What do you think about Tbilisi’s reaction to public protests?
- When they learned that the people were coming to Tbilisi, the president should have talked with them the same day. Had he promised them half, or even one third, of what he is promising now, the people would have gone home peacefully and there would be no problems.
The decision to close down the Imedia TV channel was a gross mistake; nobody does this in other countries. Do all TV channels in the United States praise President George W. Bush? No, many criticize him, but nobody closes down TV channels in the US, or in any other country for that matter.
- What is the lineup of forces at the upcoming presidential election in Georgia? Which candidate would be best for the country?
- I cannot rule out that the people will reelect Saakashvili. But the opposition may rise against such a decision. It has influential leaders supported by many people. Nobody knows what Saakashvili would do if he loses the election. There could be unrest and the danger of a civil war again.
- What can you say about Badri Patarkatsishvili?
- Badri came to Georgia thanks to me. He was on the wanted list, together with Boris Berezovsky.
I had a connection to Badri, or rather our embassy in Russia did. When we learned that Russia’s First Channel (ORT), where Badri was a commercial director then, was making a negative show about Georgia, we only had to call Badri and he took the show off the air.
I once told Putin that we had granted a Georgian passport to the man wanted in Russia. Putin asked if I was referring to Berezovsky. I told him, No, Badri Patarkatsishvili. Oh Badri, he’s not a bad guy, Putin said.
Badri is now running for the presidency in Georgia. I once said that if I were president of Georgia I would appoint Badri my prime minister. He is a very clever man, he knows all about money and spent a lot on charity. He is respected and loved in Georgia.
He is not in Tbilisi now. They have unearthed some information against him, I don’t know if this evidence is legitimate or not. Some say it is not.
- A few words about the presidential election in Russia. Do you think it is right that its outcome is almost predetermined?
- It is very important to me that Putin will remain at the helm, one way or another, because he has a majority in parliament and the people respect him. Russians do not know [First Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry] Medvedev as well as they know Putin. So if Putin becomes prime minister, he will actually be the top power in the country. I have heard that Medvedev is an educated and well-informed man, but I have never met him personally.
- Do you have a formula for improving relations between Georgia and Russia?
- Everything depends on the top leaders. I am not referring to Medvedev as Russia’s future president, but to Putin and the man elected in Georgia.
They should move towards each other, but the first move must be made by the Georgian president. However, if Putin makes it, this will further improve his image, and everyone will say that he is a generous man.
