As the southeast of Ukraine is struggling to survive humanitarian catastrophe, the number of civilian casualties in the conflict zone, according to UN figures, has already exceeded 2000. Could that be enough to make the West realize that they are supporting - war criminals. Radio VR discussed the issue with Kirill Koktysh, political analyst, based with MGIMO University, in Moscow, and Mateusz Piskorski, Head of the European Center for Geopolitical Analysis in Szczecin, Poland.
One of the biggest mysteries has been Kiev’s hysterical reaction to Russia sending 270 trucks with almost 1,800 tons of medical supplies, food, including baby food, sleeping bags and other basic necessities as humanitarian aid to the South East of Ukraine. Western leaders called it ‘humanitarian intervention’ and insisted Russia’s relief effort was illegal. So, what is it that made Ukrainian government and their US sponsors so upset?
Kirill Koktysh, political analyst, based with MGIMO University, in Moscow, Russia:
“There are several reasons, at least several reasons can be mentioned. First of all, the humanitarian catastrophe could be one of the strategies of Kiev to get the victory over the southeast of Ukraine. Probably, this humanitarian aid was ruining such plans.
The second reason is that Kiev would obviously like to provide the humanitarian aid, but by itself, and only to the territories that are already controlled by Kiev, but not to the territories that are out of control. This is the continuation of the first reason’s logic. Kiev would like to be the only hand that can distribute aid and the Russians’ aid under this logic would be considered like a challenge, like a cancellation of this strategy.
Obviously, the other reason is propagandistic, because Kiev uses this case to mobilize the Western community against Russia and to convince that Russia’s participation in the Ukrainian conflict is only a military participation. Kiev tries to convince Europe along with the US that the humanitarian aid is the pretext for the Russian intrusion and nothing else.
And when these accusations were not confirmed, all this company stopped. And this is one of the confirmations that it was only for the propagandistic reasons. It is just an attempt to bite Russia one more time, but nothing more.”
So, you are saying that the ultimate goal of Kiev – and the US - is creating a humanitarian catastrophe in the southeast of Ukraine?
Kirill Koktysh: Well, when you are not able to get a victory with the help of usual military tools, a humanitarian catastrophe could be one of the additional tools. Putting people into a nightmare when they are lacking of food, lacking electricity, lacking water, in this nightmare giving up can be considered a way out. So, this could be one of the strategies and an argument of how to persuade the southeast to live along with Kiev under the conditions of Kiev.
Do you think that people in the West, the public, are going to ultimately become aware of what is going on there?
Kirill Koktysh: With regards to the European public, I guess it is. There is a shift starting to appear in the way in which the Ukrainian crisis is being perceived and how this information combines with the usual picture of the world. The Europeans, it seems to me, have already understood that the things are not as simple, as they are presented, and that there should be not only the arguments and opinions, but also the facts. And in the problem of the Western propaganda is that it is lacking the facts. It mostly relies on the opinions and more or less free interpretation, but this interpretation may not correlate with the reality as it is.
So, it seems to me that this shift has already started. As long as the Europeans would face the necessity to pay for the Ukrainians…and this necessity would obviously come in the next several months, because the Ukrainians are moving to the financial default and an actual catastrophe during this winter when Ukraine itself would be lacking gas, electricity and coal. There could be an energy collapse that Ukraine would face. And of course, the Europeans would be proposed to pay the Ukrainian bills. So, as this necessity would come closer, the reflection of the Ukrainian developments would be more and more critical, they would look at the facts rather than at the opinions.
When you are just a football fan and you are figuring out what team you’d prefer, it is one thing. But when you are paying for your choice, it is rather different. So, it seems to me that moving from the state of a fan to the state of a payer, the Europeans would think more and more and would be more and more critical of the Ukrainians developments.
Mateusz Piskorski, Head of the European Center for Geopolitical Analysis in Szczecin, Poland:
“Kiev is trying to hide the fact that they do not control the situation on the – let’s say – de jure territory of Ukraine. They do not control the units of different extremist and radical forces. They do not control the battalions and the brigades which are participating in the operation in the southeast of the country.
And they do not control politically a large mass of those who were supporting the so-called EuroMaidan before, meaning the Right Sector and other radical groups. But, of course, on the other hand, the entire public opinion, the entire international opinion knows perfectly that those forces are somehow politically linked and connected to what has happened in Ukraine. That’s why, perhaps, the Ukrainian authority is not controlling anything and is trying to hide the facts. And, on the other hand, they are trying to save their image, as the side of the conflict which is being attacked and which is being pressed by the Russian Federation.
So, this is the kind of policy that does not have any real connection to the military and political reality in Ukraine. But I guess that this is another kind of informational war of trying to hide those facts which can be a burden for the Ukrainian authority.
The statement that, perhaps, they are not going to disclose the results of the investigation, doesn’t it make you think that, perhaps, those results are not playing into the hands of the Ukrainian Government and the US?
Mateusz Piskorski: Well, we can be more than sure that the Ukrainian side hasn’t got any kind of evidence which could point at the fighters of the southeast of Ukraine, the so-called separatists or volunteers, as well as that they do not have evidence which would point at the Russia’s participation in what has happened with the Malaysian Boeing. And it was obvious from the very beginning.
I’d like to remind the fact that, on the one hand, just after this tragedy they have claimed that without any doubt this tragedy was caused by the pro-Russian or the Russian side of the conflict. And, on the other hand, a few days after what has happened the representatives of the American intelligence, who are closely cooperating and coordinating the Ukrainian partners and allies, claimed that there is no evidence which would clearly show who is guilty of what has happened with the Malaysian airplane.
So, from the very beginning we know that the American side and the Ukrainian side, which is, of course, just fulfilling the orders of their American sponsors, doesn’t have any slightest evidence for their accusations against Russia and against the forces of Novorossiya. So, we can probably say that, and this is a hypothesis on my part, that they themselves feel quite guilty of what has happened, of the whole tragedy and that’s why they hide the facts. But the international opinion, the international organizations, as well as the families of the victims, of those people who died, should have the right to know the results of the investigation. The investigation should be an independent one, but, nevertheless, the Ukrainians are definitely hiding something. At least, they are hiding the fact that the pro-Russian forces and the Russian side did not have any connection to what has happened.
Last week Amnesty International published their report on the civilian casualties in Afghanistan. And these people sounded quite indignant over the fact that in 13 years of counterterrorism operation in Afghanistan 1800 civilians were killed. Now, we have the southeast of Ukraine where more than 2000 have been killed in less than 4 months. Is there any kind of awareness in Europe growing about the scope of crime which is being committed there?
Mateusz Piskorski: The problem in Europe is that most of the European media, as well as most of the American media are just repeating the propaganda used in the informational war by the Kiev authorities. Which means that they show everything in a very one-sided way and they present only those – let’s say – facts or propaganda issues which are used by the Kiev authorities. And that’s why in Europe almost no one discusses, for instance, the humanitarian tragedy of the southeast of Ukraine, almost no one is aware of what is going on there when it comes to the civilian casualties.
And, of course, if we would compare Afghanistan and even Iraq with Ukraine, when it comes to the media coverage in the West, we could say that in the EU, in the Western countries we knew much more about the civilian casualties in Afghanistan and in Iraq than we hear now in our media about the civilian casualties in the southeast of Ukraine. So, this is the matter of informational war, this is the matter of the fact that, unfortunately, all the EU countries are now participating in this war, are somehow supporting the American-Ukrainian point of view and just block all the information which would bring some news about the civilian victims of the whole conflict in Ukraine.
I would give you one example. For instance, in several European cities there was an exhibition of some photos covering the tragic events on the 2nd of May in Odessa. Nevertheless, I would say that no one state-owned media, no one established mainstream media was interested to see it and to cover the topic as such. So, from the very beginning, since several months the Western media is definitely participating in the informational war and is not fulfilling their duty and their mission of informing the society about what is really going on in the southeast of Ukraine. This is just a war.
When it comes to the civilian victims of the conflict in Ukraine, I'm more than sure that the situation there is even more tragic than it was in several Middle Eastern or Central Asian countries before, the countries which you have mentioned, because, very simple, people there (in Ukraine) are besieged in the large cities, in large urban and industrial areas. This means that using – let’s say – missiles and even, as we heard, ballistic missiles against the densely populated urban areas might bring more and more civilian victims.
And it seems that the Ukrainian authorities are now just trying to clear the entire territory, which means to organize a kind of ethnic cleansing and by their permanent attacks and bombings to pressure the local population to leave the territory and head towards Russia, which is actually already going on. So, I guess this is the main goal of the so-called antiterrorist operation – to clean the territory, to get control over the territory, not over the people, because all those people who have witnessed all these tragedies of the so-called antiterrorist operation, would hardly agree to live in the Ukrainian state which is governed by Kiev that has committed all those crimes.
